How to heal when you've been hurt by the Church with Pastor Brian Cromer | S3 E37
Brian Cromer is the lead pastor of Queen City Church in Cincinnati, OH. He and his wife, Heather, along with their two little boys moved to Cincinnati in 2018 to plant a life-giving church that has now been open for 3 1/2 years. Brian has a heart for people and helping them have a relationship with Jesus that gets better and better. He loves the local church and wants to see everyone planted in a church somewhere. He pastored students at Gateway Church in Texas prior to feeling the call to plant a church.
This week’s episode is with my pastor, Pastor Brian Cromer. I got to sit down and talk through a few questions that I commonly hear in conversations regarding church. We get to talk about church hurt and how can we heal in areas we’ve been hurt without giving up on church. We discuss expectations for pastoral care and how we can build relationship and communicate our needs within the church. We also talk about burnout from serving and getting over involved in church and how we can recover from that as well. I hope today’s episode will encourage you to meet with your own church leadership if you are feeling any hurt, frustration or burnout so that you can heal too and continue to be a part of your local church.
What you can learn in today’s episode:
How can you overcome church hurt?
What expectations should we have about pastoral care?
What do we do about the news we are currently hearing around the Church?
How to recover from burnout in the church?
What do our church leaders think and how can we have open conversations with them?
Links from this episode:
*Some links may contain affiliate links where a commission is made at no additional cost to you.
Episode Transcript:
Today's conversation with Pastor Brian is talking through different questions around church hurt, church burnout, pastoral care and how to have a relationship with Jesus beyond church. There’s so much more we could have covered but our hope is that this episode will be a starting place for you to be able to find some healing and show that you can have these conversations with your own church leaders as well. Let’s hop on into today’s episode:
Courtney:
Pastor Brian, thank you so much for being willing to come on my podcast today. I am excited for this conversation because, one, you're my pastor. And so, I'm glad I get to have this conversation with you and not just a random pastor, but two, just because I know you have a lot of wisdom in this area, because you have such a heartbeat for the Church and the local Church and all of that so before we hop on into questions and everything, I'd love for people to get to know you. So, if you could just introduce yourself and tell the listeners about who you are.
Brian:
Absolutely. Well, I'm honored to be here. Thankful for you, and I believe in you, and I'm proud of you. But for everybody out there. My name is Brian, and I have the honor and privilege of serving as the lead pastor at Queen City Church in Cincinnati, Ohio. And we've been a Church now for right at three and a half years. And I have an amazing family and my lovely wife, Heather, I call her my Crown. And we've been married almost 18 years later this month. And then we have two little boys. We have Jordan and Caleb. And I'm telling you, we are having the time of our life. I love what I do, where I do it, and who I get to do it with. And you cannot put a price tag on that. So very grateful to be here.
Courtney:
Well, as you know, there's so much going on in the Church world, and I'm sure you get to have a lot of conversations around just people's thoughts about Church, people's heart for Church. And also, just some of the pain points, too. And I know I have a lot of conversations, and my heartbeat is I believe Church is God's plan A. And I want people to be able to love Church and feel comfortable going to a Church. And so that's kind of why I'm doing this series to make sure people know what is God's plan for Church? And also, answer some of these questions that maybe if they just sat down with their pastor, it would help them to stay in Church and not give up on Church. And so, I figured what better way to maybe answer a few of these questions than to have a conversation with my pastor that people can listen in on, that can maybe stir them to have similar conversations or if not, just hopefully encourage them. So, a lot of the questions that we're going to talk through today are ones that I've heard, or I've heard through other people. And so, I just am hoping that this will be life giving and just a breath of fresh air for people and help them not to give up.
The first question is one that I've heard before where we have a lot going on in Church and people come and sometimes there's like the hype of you give your life to Jesus. But I think we also want to make sure people are retaining their relationship with Jesus. So how do we make sure people are not only just accepting Jesus but also continuing to build and grow in their relationship? And how do we do a good job of discipling them and keeping them engaged?
Brian:
Yeah. And Courtney, that's a great question. That's something that I think a lot about. I think as a team, our leadership team thinks a lot about how can we just not create moments for people to give their life to Jesus, but how can we help people have a real, lasting, consistent relationship with Jesus? And even in my story, I grew up in Church, but even like, the best way I can describe it is I knew a lot about God, but I never had a relationship with God till much later in life. And so much of my Church experience was about rules, regulations, do's and don'ts. And at the end of the day, it was about behavior modification, and it was a big part of my life, but it was a very compartmentalized part of my life. And I remember just growing up and I went through this phase where I knew that there had to be more.
Actually, in fact, our Church is built on this idea that there is more that there is more to life in God and Church than what we could even possibly imagine. And so, I feel a heavy burden to not just create environments where people are inspired to make a decision to be a Christian or to give their life to Jesus, but how can you walk that out? How can we make it not just a Sunday or an experience or a service? And I think one of the ways that we try to intentionally do that is to paint a picture of what this actually is. And that I think a lot of times it can get even get painted in a way where, like, follow Jesus and you'll never have to go through anything hard, and that's just not true. And that's just not what even God's word says. Jesus himself says, in this world you will have trouble. It's actually a promise in the Bible that life is going to be hard.
And in fact, me and my wife, we have this life verse. And what we really feel like is our message as a family. And it's at the end of Matthew, chapter seven, where Jesus is preaching this amazing sermon, and he ends it by saying there are two types of people in the world, people that build their house on rock and people that build their house on sand. And he goes on to explain that he is the rock and that everything else is sand. But then it says that rains come, and the storms of life come on both houses. So, it doesn't matter what you build your life on. We all experience storms of life, but those that build their house on the rock, that their house actually stands. So, I'm passionate about helping people not just decide, I want to build my house on the rock, but how do I build my house on the rock? How can I have not just religion, but a relationship with God? Because we even believe and it's even a part of our mission is that our relationship with God just gets better and better. It never goes in reverse. So, year two is better than year one, year three is better than year two, decade number two is better than decade number one. And so, I think that there's a lot and we get to the weeds of how to be able to do that. How can we do that on an individual level?
I think a lot about, Courtney, is like the Church is so important, but I don't want people to be so dependent upon the Church to have a relationship with God. It plays a role in it, but it is not entirely the whole thing. So how can I, it's like that phrase that you can give a man to fish or you can teach a man to fish and then he can feed himself for a lifetime. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to help people know, how can you be able to have a relationship with God where Church supplements that? But it's not the only way that you can have it. It's through Church and through listening to preachers or through that. It's like, no, no, you were designed to have a personal, intimate, one on one relationship with God, and we try to help people figure out how to actually do that in 2022.
Courtney:
I love that you said that, because I think that that's what the differentiator is. I think a lot of people do... I think they think I'm going to go to Church, and that's where I get to know God, and that's the only place. But I think sometimes they forget that there's a lot of personal work that we have to do, and there is a personal side of the relationship where that's the differentiator is doing the work, being in God's word. Doing kind of the different, like spiritual disciplines that help you build that relationship.
Brian:
Yeah. And think about this. Think about my relationship, like with my wife, Heather. If my relationship with Heather was only in public settings with a bunch of people around, I don't know if we would have a very close, intimate relationship, but I have a close, intimate relationship with my wife because there's a lot of things that we do one on one. And what's cool is that, like in the Bible, it talks all about knowing God, and in the original Greek, that word know is this word ginosko. And it's a very intimate term. It's not a head knowledge, it’s heart knowledge. It's that you just don't have this head knowledge of who God is, but you have this close, intimate, daily, real relationship with him that you can know God.
Courtney:
Yeah. And I think, too, with that dependence on the Church, I think there's kind of big conversations around how do I find the right Church, how to find the right community to get involved in, and people who may have previously been hurt by the Church trying to reintegrate into finding a new Church. Any thoughts or help with people finding a Church for them?
Brian:
Absolutely. I would say this just to anybody that is listening that has been hurt by Church. Let me just represent Church leadership. Let me represent pastors. Let me represent anybody in leadership. And just let me say that I'm sorry, that for what you went through, for what you experienced, maybe for what was done, maybe for what was said. I believe with all my heart that the Church is a Jesus inspired, given, perfect vehicle that is driven by imperfect people. And I know that it's so easy to attach things of God and things of Jesus and even things of the Church to the people that have led churches and who are messy, broken, imperfect people. And so, I just know for me, I make a decision. I'm going to lead very humbly realizing, man, I'm broken, I'm busy, I make mistakes, and I want to be quick to admit that and be able to do that.
And so just for anybody that is listening, that falls into that category of, man, I've experienced significant Church hurt. Let me just represent Church leadership and say, I'm so sorry. I know that, that was not God's intent, but also at the same time, let me put on a pastor hat and let me just encourage everybody that a relationship with God, like man did not establish Church. God did. So, it plays a role. And even Church is not a building. It's people. It's people. And the Bible says that when you are planted in the house of the Lord in Psalm 92, it says you'll flourish. And I can tell you just as a pastor, that my dream for our city and our influence that we are called to be able to steward is that every single person that is in our city, I pray every day, Courtney, that they would be planted in a life giving Church. It does not have to be ours. There's a lot of amazing churches in our city in our context. But I pray that people are planting because I want people's lives to flourish. And I believe that that happens. I've seen it happen. I've experienced it happen. I know that there can be bad experiences, but I also know that there will be some amazing experiences that can change people's lives.
I would just encourage anybody to be able to get planted and to get where you put down roots where you're not just a consumer, but where you're a contributor, where it's like, no, this is my Church. I'm connected, I'm involved. I know people. I'm helping, I'm contributing. I'm using the gifts that God's given me to help contribute to what's happening here. And I think that there are a lot of different ways to do that. It's like, well, where do I start? There are tools like Google to where you can find some different places. But I think so much of it is relationships. So, to be able to say, okay, who do I feel relationally connected to? I also would say this. I think one of the biggest things of Where Can I Get Planted? Is where I feel called and connected to the mission of that organization, not just the style, not just the, oh, I like that song, or I like how that dude preaches. And I don't like that… So, I'm not going to do that. I think more is where there's a mission that this Church has, and I can be a part of that because the mission isn't just for the pastor or the leadership teams. It is for the Church. And so, I'm a big on being very mission driven when it comes to that decision. And that's why you have to be able to get to know somebody's mission, not just their style.
Courtney:
And I think that helps to at the end of the day, if you connect with that mission, there's no such thing as a perfect Church, like you said earlier, because they're made of imperfect people. And I think that something that's helped me. And I think something that's helped me is, I mean, you always say this… know your why and coming back to that. So, I think that mission is an important part of a Church to know, do they align in those ways, and can you fall back on that, If, you do get hurt, can you come back to Church and keep trying?
And speaking of getting involved in Church and all of that, I know that a lot of times we get really excited and we want to jump on a team, or we jump on a lot of teams. And I have seen this happen before, too, where sometimes we get burned out because we got a little over involved and we felt maybe like we fell through the cracks or that we weren't as cared for as we had expected. I think it comes down to that same thing with you talk about closing the gap with expectations and reality. What can we do? Or how can we help people with understanding how to kind of recover from burnout when it comes to serving at Church and not walking away from that just because they were burnt out, but having that season to still be involved in that Church without feeling burnt out?
Brian:
Yeah, absolutely. I think a few things. One is to recognize the reality of your experience and not to bury it, not to try to explain it or justify it, or they're like, no, this is what I experienced. And I think there's so much power in being honest. And I think that there is an appropriate way to do that. And I think it's so helpful. At least I desire to lead a Church where that honesty is always, I think, the greatest gift I can give down in our organization, in our Church is clarity. But the greatest gift up is honesty, because your perspective matters, and it should. And I know at least in every person's perspective, it matters. And we can't get the full perspective until we know everything.
So, I think it could be very easy to be like I'm just going to stuff that. And I think so much of the unhealthy that can come is not just in this area, but any area of your life is when you have secrets, or you have things that you've put in the dark corners of your life. And I think there's so much freedom and healing that can come from just taking something that's in the dark and putting it into the light. And so I would always encourage somebody to do that and to share your experience with leadership and not in a way to want anything outside of just, hey, I care about this place, and I care about this Church, and I want to make sure that my experience is just at least heard. And then with the idea of I don't want other people to experience this. And a lot of times I always tell people, man, I can't fix what I don't know. I just can't. And honestly, I think it's a pretty unrealistic expectation for me to be able to fix something that I don't know because I am not God. I do not know everything. I do not know everything that's happening.
And that's why I love being able to receive that type of communication, because then what it can do, especially if it's brought in humility, is to be able to say, okay, well, now I can understand a little bit more from the other side as well. Okay. That brings so much more comfort to me knowing that, that was the case. And now it's like, okay, I'm convinced two chairs in a closed door can fix a whole lot of things in this world. And if people that know I am for you, it's not us versus them. It's like we're on the same team and we want to move forward together. And so, I think that's an important part we teach our kids right now. It's actually one of the seven habits of highly affected people. It’s just seek to understand. And it's like, hey, I want to come and have a conversation where you can help me understand. And I want to be able to just share my perspective so you can understand what that is. And then that allows a perfect vehicle driven by imperfect people to get better. And I know I as a pastor, as a leader, but more than that, as a husband, as a father, as a friend, as a follower of Jesus, as a communicator, I want to get better all the time. I've never arrived. So those conversations help so much. I think that's how I would express that for somebody that maybe has experienced that and how to be able to kind of continue to go back into, OK, how do I, what is it?... I think Einstein, he says, doing the same thing, expecting a different result is the definition of what is it, insanity? So, something like that. So, Google it. It'll be there.
Courtney:
Yeah. And I think that ties in well with my other question about pastoral care, because I think there are so many different types of churches, and every Church seems to do pastoral care differently that I think sometimes people come from one Church to a new Church and they don't really know what to expect for pastoral care. And sometimes it's through small groups or sometimes it's through pastors. And I know, like with our model of Church, it wouldn't be possible for you to meet with every single Church member. And so, we have a structure for that. And sometimes there's a gap on the Church attendee side where they don't understand how they can receive pastoral care. How can we kind of fill those gaps and make sure people feel cared for in the hard moments of life?
Brian:
Yeah, because I think maybe I just am optimistic. I don't consider myself an optimist. I consider myself a realist. And I believe that almost every single Church out there, if you said here's truth serum, take it… Do you care about the people in your Church? 100% will say, absolutely, yes, do that. But what I've also learned is that perception is reality in this seat. And if people don't know that or they don't believe that or they're not experiencing that, that is their reality. And so, it's so important to be able to do that on both sides. Do you have the systems and structures to be able to handle pastoral care? Because essentially, that is one of the most and honestly, it's why I believe, like, you need more than just online Church, because who do you call on your bad day? Who do you call when everything goes crazy and you experience crisis and there has to be some level of connection with other people. And I think on the Church side, it's systems, it's training. Are we training our people how to do that? Do they even know that that is an expectation of a group leader? Okay. We want you to step in and to be able to help in those areas or somebody that is on the leadership team that leads a group of people that are maybe serving, hey, that's another great pastoral care opportunity.
It's more than just hey, we want to greet people at the door. It's like, no, when somebody that is a greeter that does that, you step in and you help, and you communicate that up and you make sure that people are aware and all those types of things. But then I would also say when it comes to people within the Church, that especially if it's new, I always encourage people to go in with their eyes wide open because it can be this unrealistic expectation of relationship right off the bat. And I always just encourage people to embrace the awkward because every new relationship that you have is awkward. But if you think about your best friends in the world, probably the first time you met them and that's not what the relationship was. It took time to be able to get there. And so, I think if we are aware of that, then it's like, okay, I'm cool with that being a little bit of a process. I'm understanding that it's a little bit process because it's been consistent throughout my entire life. Every relationship I've had, it takes a while to get to where it feels close, where it feels like, man, I know that they know me, and they know my heart. They know people checking on me and all those types of things.
But essentially so much of pastoral care is relationships. And relationships like all of them, they take a little bit of time. And so, we have systems set in place to maybe help with them initially. But what my dream is that, man, I've gotten so connected in community, with friends, with groups that I'm in teams that I serve on that when something happens in my life, there is 50 people that know that are praying for me, checking on me, bringing me food, crying with me, texting encouragement, whatever the case is. And then if that happens to be somebody that's on and if I know them, that absolutely will happen. But I think to be able to scale that, that's really important because it is people matter, and we all need to be cared for it, and we need to do a great job. But like anything, I think it's really important to have grace at the table, too.
Courtney:
I love that. Well, any final encouragement you would leave for just whether it's Church leaders and Church members, just with everything going on in today's culture and just with Church to help them not give up on leading a Church and help them not give up and leaving a Church?
Brian:
Yeah, I would say this, Courtney. I think right now in today's culture and I've thought a lot about this, that there has been a series of very public things that have been brought to light in the Church. And this is not the only time, if you study history, that's something that's been and I will never minimize those things because on the other side of those are people that have been hurt, that have experienced pain, confusion has led to questioning faith and what I believe. And all those things. And those things are very real. And I can tell you that I'm even encouraged by those things coming to light, because I believe that when things come to light, great things can happen, even if it's tough at first. But I would also encourage people that while those things are very real, for every one of those stories, there are thousands of stories that are not being told, that are not loud right now, of churches that are being faithful, that are making a massive difference in great leaders and pastors that are making a difference in what God has called them to do. Some of them are in small churches, but just for everyone, that is very real. And I'm not minimizing those ones, but there are thousands of others.
And I think I've just been reminded of the fact that the Church is resilient. It just is. And I think that's because it's not dependent upon us. Matthew 16 Jesus says, I will build my Church, and even the gates of hell will not be able to prevail, the Church I build is unstoppable. And I'm just reminded of that. It is not my Church. It is Jesus's church. I have the honor and privilege of being able to serve Jesus’s Church. And I don't build it. He builds it upon my rock I will build my Church, is what he says. And I've gone through a lot of what is my response to this? I've shared that I've had many conversations, one on one conversations, public conversations where people have asked me, hey, can I process this with you? And just a few things that I would say is I made a decision. I will show the kind of grace and mercy I pray I someday never need. And if I'm going to err on the side of something, I'm going to err on the side of that. And so, I realize who I am without Jesus, and my life has been changed by the grace of God. And there are very real consequences to choices that are made, but the grace of God still applies to all. And if I'm going to err on the side, I'm going to err on the side of Grace and also believe that there is consequences and there's all those things, but that's just important to me. Those are things that I've just been really thinking a lot about, and I hope that those encourage people.
Courtney:
Yeah, I think they definitely will. Well, thank you so much for just having this conversation with me today. I feel like it's really going to help people with one being able to have the words, to have the conversation with their own pastors or Church leaders and to just hopefully help them see that grace side and that heart of God. It takes two people in the conversation to be able to move the Church forward and that humans make up the Church and God has a plan for the Church and to not give up. So. I really appreciate you talking with me and I thank you so much.
Brian:
It's my pleasure.
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. While we couldn’t cover everything that I wish we could, because we could have talked for hours on this topic… it’s my hope that you can take this conversation and the conversation guide provided through our email list and be able to have life giving, healing conversations in your own communities.
If you'd like to sign up for my email list, you can do so here. I’ll send you our conversation guide for this series when you sign up. And that way you'll get the episodes sent straight to your inbox, so you never miss it in case you happen not to see it on social media. Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you here next week.
