What does the Bible say about Church with Dr. Joel Muddamalle | S3 E36
Joel serves as the Director of Theology and Research for Proverbs 31 Ministries and Lysa TerKeurst, and is a part of the preaching team at Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Gray. Joel earned a PhD in Theology under Drs. Patrick Schreiner (NT) and Michael Heiser (OT) with an emphasis on Paul's household language in Ephesians as it relates to the Old Testament. He loves studying and teaching the brilliant truths found in Scripture and unpacking how they relate to our everyday lives.
Connect with Joel:
Website: muddamalle.com
Instagram: @muddamalle
This week we are kicking off our Church series where we are talking all about why we need Church, what is the biblical meaning of Church, what was God’s plan for Church and healing from Church Hurt. Today’s Episode is with Dr. Joel Muddamalle where we are tackling questions around the biblical meaning and intention for Church, how we can have conversations with our leaders about church and around becoming more confident in studying scripture. There is so much wisdom packed into today’s episode and I hope you find it encouraging, challenging and inspiring whether you are a ministry/ church leader or just part of a church.
What you can learn in today’s episode:
What does the Bible say about Church?
What was God’s intention/ plan for Church?
What should Church look like?
How to be rooted in scripture
Encouragement for those healing from Church hurt
Talking about current trends in our world like New Ageism and how do we as Christians speak truth into those areas.
Links from this episode:
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Episode Transcript:
Today's conversation with Joel is all about what is the biblical meaning and intention of church? What should church look like? What are some ways that we can do better as well as addressing some of the cultural things that we are currently seeing as well, and know today's conversation is full of wisdom, so let's hop on into today's episode.
Courtney:
Joel, thank you so much for being willing to come on the podcast. I appreciate all the wisdom that you share online and so I'm really grateful that we get to have this conversation today just to talk about this kind of theology around church and kind of what the Bible actually says and just some wisdom.
Joel:
Yeah, I'm super excited. Thanks Courtney. I can't wait for this discussion. The church is something near and dear to my heart and so I'm excited to kind of navigate through that and see what does the Bible actually have to say about it.
Courtney:
Yeah, absolutely, well just so the audience can get to know you in case they’re not familiar with you, tell them a little bit about you who you are, what you do and all of that good stuff.
Joel:
Yeah, so I'm Joel Muddamalle. I get to serve at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Instructor of theology and research, and so I work closely with our President Lysa Terkeurst and get to work on her book projects and her Bible studies and I get to joke and it's not really a joke, it's just very serious that I think I've got the very best job in the entire world and so I get to work on theology and Bible study and research for the majority of my days. And one of the big projects that I get to work on is a series called therapy and theology, with Lysa, myself and our good friend Jim Crest. We kind of get to navigate those different worlds. It's been a lot of fun.
My background, I'm a I'm a bit of a theological mutt. I've been, to my wife’s dismay, I've been in school for really long time, and I finally just got done and I don't think I'm going back anytime soon. But undergrads in Biblical studies and theology, an M.Div master's in organizational psychology and church planting and then PhD in Biblical theology. So, all that to say I just really love God's word and I really love unpacking it. And I view myself more as a synthesizer. I love taking academic kind of that stuff that nobody gets really excited about reading, but I kind of like man. I think we should all be reading some of this stuff and I'm trying to package it and synthesize it in a way that we can translate it into our everyday lives because I think theology should actually be lived. Like if we don't live our theology, it's really probably not theology.
Courtney:
Yeah, I think that's so great and that is a lot of different letters behind your name I'm sure, or now it's just probably PhD...
Joel:
Yeah exactly... Well, now it's just easy, it's just PhD and Yeah it took a long road to get there with a lot of dissertation writing, was difficult, challenging, a lot of fun along the way. But yeah, I just, I got to the end and I realized that studying God's word is a lifelong journey, you know. And so, the PhD journey for me was just the beginning of what I hope do for the span of my life.
Courtney:
Well, I'm excited for just the background that you have because I feel like it's really going to be beneficial for our audience because I know we've a lot of us either grew up in church or maybe we're brand new to church, but maybe we don't fully know what was God's original intention for church and what should church kind of look like according to the Bible. So, I'd love to kind of break that down a bit. What does the Bible say about church and you know what does it mean in the biblical context?
Joel:
Yeah, so I guess one of the first places that we can start. So, my training is a bit more on the biblical theology side of things. So, I like to see words, phrases, doctrines, concepts in the Old Testament and New Testament text and kind of say hey, what is the overarching, kind of big picture of this topic and for the church. I think like all things we kind of have to start in Eden. And as you start to read Genesis, you get this picture of God, who is a really good God and he doesn't want division. He doesn't want chaos. He doesn't want destruction. The very first things that God does and all of created order is actually creating order. It's creating distinction separating see. In Sky and land and in the oceans and the water and all this kind of stuff. And then in the midst of all of that he creates Adam and Eve in the garden. And it's really important when we understand the ancient near Eastern world this Mesopotamian land that Genesis is kind of rooted in and the story of the Old Testament is placed in. That gardens were typically a place of the residence of a king and a king would have a garden. He'd go out and hang out and have his royal family with him, and so the very first picture that we have of Adam and Eve. A man is in a royal garden with the king Yahweh himself talking and hanging out and having responsibility in the garden. And so, I think one of the first things that can often be overlooked or missed it is reclaiming a vision of the church which first and foremost as a family and that's what's happening in Eden.
That's what's happening with the people of Israel that God claims he says, hey of all the nations of the world like Israel, I'm going to have you, as my inheritance as in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 and then he says for a purpose, this is Genesis 12, the Abrahamic covenant, so that the nations would be drawn in, that all of the nations of the Earth would become one family through Abraham and through this incredible promise. And so, this begs the question. Like where do we find the first instance of the church as we understand it now? I want us to look at two places- One is Acts 2, This is Pentecost. This is a time when there's a massive festival. All the people from across the nations are kind of coming together to participate in this festival and it's really interesting that in Acts 2 you have the presence of the fulfillment of Genesis 12. All the things that God had promised Abraham in Genesis 12 come into fulfillment in Acts 2. The nations are there, they hear Peter proclaim the goodness of the gospel and all the way in Acts 2 it's really interesting that there is clarity behind how they heard the message of the gospel. There's a massive list of nations that are kind of mentioned.
If you take Genesis 10, which is called the table of nations, and that comes before Genesis 11, the Tower of Babel, and then Genesis 12, Abrahamic covenant, and then you trace that and then you compare it side by side with Acts 2. It's the exact same places. It's pretty insane, and so what we have in Acts 2 is actually what I call a redemptive reinstitution of this idea that God wants to have a united multinational multiethnic family and the people here. The good news of the Gospel in their own native tongues, and then in Acts 2 it says that after they hear the gospel, after they respond to the gospel, the first church forms and says that that they had everything. Together they gave as everybody needed, they ate, and they prayed, and they committed themselves to the breaking of the bread into the teaching of scripture and so I think it's really important that we see from the from the get go in Acts 2 we don’t have something necessarily brand new, but we actually have a fulfillment of something that God intended for his people from the very beginning of when he created Adam and Eve and through Genesis 12 in the Abrahamic Covenant, a family who would come together. And make up the nations of the World that would be committed to God, that would break bread together, that would be devoted to him through studying his word and the Great Commission to go then and proclaim this good news that they enjoy as a family and invite all these people that are living in darkness to come and take part of being a part of the light of the family of God.
Courtney:
I think that is so good. It's good to know how it connects because I always love those moments in Scripture where it does connect from, you know, Genesis to Acts and how it's part of God's holistic plan. So, I think that really helps, and I think that helps us be able to see what that can look like in in modern day church because I know that church has changed so much over the different years with all the different denominations and all the different ways to do church. You know it used to be more formal, and now there's churches where it's less formal and so, but I think when you get to the heart of it. It's a community of God, people doing life together and help building one another up in Christ and spreading the gospel. So, I love how you put that and multi-ethnic- I love that. So how do we do church in a way that honors that and honors the Bible and God’s plan. Like how should we as Christians kind of be, you know, viewing that and working together so that we can continue building church in a healthy way. Because I know there's been a lot of talk lately. There's documentaries coming out and different things where people have questions, so I'd love to talk about that a bit of what can we do to work together?
Joel:
Yeah, I think that's good. I think I want to start by actually reading those verses that I summarized to help us getting get into this. So, Acts 2:42 I'm reading from CSB it says that they (and talking about all these disciples) “they devoted themselves to the teaching, to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer,” and so it seems like there's these four things that are together. Like they're devoted, they're together, there's teaching, there's eating, and then there's prayer. And then verse 44 it says, “Now all the believers were together.” So that's repeated and “held all things in common.” Well, what were those things in common? It was the teaching, it was the prayer, it was the breaking of bread, like repetition in scripture has reason. And then it says, this I think is intriguing, verse 45, “They sold their possessions and property and distributed the proceeds to all as any had need. And every day they devoted themselves again.” Another repetition of that word devoted, and this word actually means to give one in Greek, it means to give oneself up to someone else. They devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple and repetition... they broke bread from house to house. They ate their food with joyful and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all people. And then I think this part is vitally important, every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved and so how do we do this and how and I think you asked some really important, crucial questions for us to consider. How do we make sense of podcasts and documentaries and things that are coming out that seem to be exposing what we may say is the dark side of the church.
That is, I think, in the conversations I'm having with many people just today on my Instagram I had so many questions about this. This particular thing of can we trust the church and what is the church actually supposed to be and have we gone sideways with the church. And I would say there's a lot of different discussion and nuances that to happen to be in each of those situations, but I want us to go back and ask this question... And if you're a ministry leader or pastor and you're listening to this, or you're a church member who loves the church and you want to have some dialogue with your pastors or ministry leader. Here's the text that I would just kind of point to and say, hey have a dialogue around this (Acts 2:42). Are you committed to God's word? Do you do it together? Do you break bread and community? And is there prayer? And is there a sense that this gathering, in the New Testament the word is ecclesia, the Greek word means the gathered assembly. It has nothing to do with the with the building or the facility, it's the Assembly, the people of God make up the Church of God are the gathered people devoted to God. Are they devoted to come to the good news of declaring Jesus, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and in that I think you have to address and navigate through, huh, all of the systems that we do, the programs that we have, all those are really good things. I think they're great, right? But it is very possible for us to have really great ministry programs and still miss the heart of the gospel. It's very possible for us to run so hard after ministry that we stop being the church of God and we're just now a social Club, like wow. We're just doing justice for the sake of justice. And we're not doing justice because it's the heartbeat of God's redemptive plan to bring people back into to the family of God, and so in one way, it's simple, right? It's like duh Joel just look and read and then, and you've got it.
But I would say just because it's simple doesn't mean that it's simplistic. There is a complexity to it, it requires us to be honest with ourselves and with our heart postures. And how we do church and so the warning I would give now, this is like the academic in me, I'm always nuancing my positions and footnoting, so consider this the footnote. The footnote that I would give is to be wary of throwing out things that we do in church because we're fearful of the outcome of it, or we're fearful that's going to take us sideways. Instead of being fearful if it's going to take us sideways instead put guardrails and boundaries and accountability in place so that you can still maximize your efforts for the advancement of the gospel, that's what Jesus wants from us, you know. And do it in a way that protects you and protects your people so that you're not in a situation where you listen to a podcast or watch a documentary and you go, whoa, like that's my story like whoa like you know, and I'm just aware that a lot of people have had those hurts and have had those challenges and yet I cannot read Scripture... this is Paul all throughout the New Testament. I cannot read Scripture and find a Plan B that God has installed. Like the church is God's Plan A for the advancement of his good news, for the invitation of humanity to be reconciled to himself. You know this is 2 Corinthians 5 Paul’s talking to the church in Corinth. He says your ambassadors of Christ to make the appeal of reconciliation to Christ in them, and through them, and so the tendency might be for us to be like we should just blow the whole thing up and stop doing this and there's got to be a different way and I would just be like hold on, you know, we don't need to do something new and blow it up. What we need is a retrieval of the authentic view and vision of what the church looks like and still make use of technology and still make use of make use of cultural ingenuity. You know all those things are possible, I think the problem is those things become elevated above and beyond these four things that we just listed in Acts 2.
Courtney:
That's so good, because I think that there is kind of this tendency, at least from things that I've seen online and probably a lot of us do, where it's kind of like all right we're going to take up our pitchforks against the church. And the other people are like no, you're attacking and persecuting, and so it's like, there's gotta be this middle ground where we can not just blow it all up, but work together to continue to build the church because that is God's plan. And think not idolizing the system of the church or the church in that way, but making sure that God is in his rightful place within that plan too.
Joel:
And think about the language, Courtney, the language of the Church that Paul uses. It's the bride of Christ. And Christ is the head and we've got this intimate kind of language for it. And so it's kind of like, man, that's probably not wise for us to disregard the bride of Jesus. I don't think he's gonna be super happy with that, you know. Right? And so I think just paying attention to the imagery like this is a big deal, and so I'm so grateful that you're shining a light on it because we do need to think about this carefully.
Courtney:
Yeah, and I loved what you said earlier too about kind of having those open conversations with your pastors or your ministry leaders and things like that because I think unfortunately, what happens a lot of times is people will get frustrated and they'll just walk away instead of having a conversation. And so hopefully this podcast today will encourage people to go have a conversation. Maybe this will give you some questions to walk away with from this episode that can help you have open dialogue with the leaders in your life. I think that that is so important as well.
Joel:
That’s so good and just to piggyback off of that, I think we live in a culture of quick fix. You know, we watch fixer upper and Chip and Joanna and they're amazing. And in a 30 minute segment, we watched them go from like horrific to just the most beautiful, gorgeous house, right? Well y'all, it didn't take 30 minutes like this is a long process and many years of expertise and thinking and problems you know. And so what I'm worried about is a culture of a quick fix in the church. So, when we don't get the “quick fix,” it's easier for us to church hop or to think the grass is greener on the other side. And this is a conversation that my family is having consistently and I'm having it a lot with church leaders, right now that the grass is never greener on the other side. I know there are reasons, there are some serious reasons why you may want to really consider switching churches. I mean doctrinal issues, theological issues, like there are definitely reasons but my encouragement is far, far more often is... be rooted, be committed, be a part of the solution of what God intends for the local church bride because it's that stability and consistency that is going to pay dividends over a period of time. My buddy Daniel Grothe, he wrote a really great book. It's called the Power of Place, and the subtitle is something like finding stability or like chasing stability in the unstable world or something like that and he just talks about how it's so important for us to be rooted somewhere. And I think the local church is a place that we should really fight hard to be rooted in. And then again, I caveat myself because there are at times situations, and circumstances that might require us to have a hard goodbye, you know. But I just think if we're honest with ourselves more often than not that many of these issues fall in areas of preference potentially. And if not? We could have had a conversation that could have had a lot of momentum and yet instead of like what you just said, instead of having the conversation, we're like, yeah, I'm gonna dip, I'm out of here and that's not helpful in the long run, either.
Courtney:
Yeah, yeah, so thinking of kind of like getting rooted, I know something else I wanted to also talk about and I'll kind of jump around to different questions, but one area that I get a lot of questions from some of the people that I hang out with on Instagram and just in my own church community is... I think it goes back to that whole quick fix thing because the Bible isn't always... it's not just a quick read. Sometimes you can go to psalms and read something short, but I think some people get intimidated by reading the Bible. And they don't know where to start. But how can we kind of grow in our confidence and build a stronger foundation and God’s word and better have kind of some theology without necessarily going and getting a PhD. But you know, being confident in in reading the Word understanding,
Joel:
Yeah I'm reading a book right now by the late great Eugene Peterson. It's called A Long Obedience in the Same Direction, and he's talking about this and so one of the things I would just say first off in terms of confidence is like just because I have a PhD that doesn't mean that I have some special revelation from God that other people don't have. Honestly, it means that I'm more aware of what I don't know. I think, you know, I said that kind of early earlier on. You and everybody listening have the exact same Holy Spirit that I do and in fact I typically tell people some of the greatest moments of spiritual and biblical knowledge for me have been around a table where I've got, you know, Lysa or Maddie and Shea, and we've got Eric. We've got all these people and they bring up a question or they they're like, oh, I just thought about this and they're making textual connections that I would have never thought of, you know? And so, I just want to validate like if you're opening God’s Word and you're reading his word, you are doing something profound and important, don't look down on that. We all have areas of growth. Now a very practical way on how to do it would be being committed to a Bible reading plan, and so I usually call this the difference between macro and micro reading. I'm geared toward micro reading. I want to look at the verse I want to exegete it, look at the Greek or the Hebrew, see all the parallels... that's actually not good for me over the long run, but I actually have to train myself to read macro. So large sections are from reading through the Gospel of Matthew reading like I read a novel, you know, like trying to get a big grasp of what's taking place, and so if you can kind of change up how you read the Bible based off of macro and micro.
I think that can help you to just get the large like kind of sweep of what's taking place in the biblical narrative. Again, very practically, Genesis 1 through 12 I think are the most important chapters of the Bible. Because Genesis 1 through 12 are repeated all the way throughout Revelation. You know, like you get from Genesis 13 through the end of the Book of Revelation is all repeating narratives and plots, and storylines of what's taking place in Genesis 1 through 12, and then the Exodus story. You know, the Book of Exodus is super important for us to understand how God is working to draw his people into the promised land. And that's a repeated kind of theme. And so, I think those are some just practical tips if you're like Joel, what's the hit list of chapters or books to read? I'd be like definitely you know dive deep in Genesis 1 through 12. Read the Book of Exodus and then starting a gospel. I tend to like Luke because he's a historian and so he's very detailed. I read Luke and Acts together, it's kind of like Luke is the first book and Acts is the sequel you know. And then other people are like no, get me to the point, I would say go with Mark. Mark is kind of like ADD. He's like I don't got time for any fluff. You know, he's repeating that word immediately over and over again, because he's trying to get you to the cross. He trying to get you to passion week, you know, if you were trying to get some plot twists and stuff Matthew is a great read because you know Matthew’s got all kinds of issues going on in the book and so you kind of have different ways to read, and so those might be some helpful ways.
Courtney:
I think that's great, and if someone feels like called to write because I know you guys work with like Compel and Lysa has a lot of like writing ministry and stuff. How would you encourage someone to be more confident in the words they feel called to write? I know you guys have a team where you kind of cross check and all of that, but there's a lot of people online writing and I know that it can sometimes feel intimidating to put something out there and fearful at times. How do you kind of grow in that confidence too and have the right checks in place as well to kind of cross check yourself?
Joel:
That's such a great question. A couple thoughts here. One is again your local church. I think your local church pastors and ministry leaders are a great help for you, especially if they have like theological and biblical training of being able to like run chapters or Bible studies by them. Dialogue with them and just get feedback. Again, I think feedback in a group setting. Find some trusted people. That I call them like theology nerds. You know, they're the types of people that, if you mention a verse like, they're never going to be happy with just hearing it to have to chase it down themselves. Read it in context. That kind of stuff. During my PhD I had like people that just were like non seminary non whatever that they just love God's Word, and I would send them chapters of my dissertation to read and they caught so many things like I could not have passed my PhD without Lysa's help and without Crystal’s help and others. And so, it's like Yeah, I think having those people around you and again it is helpful to have somebody that maybe has formal training and a degree. And maybe you can get that through your pastor or industry leaders absolutely, but also don't undermine the local community that you have, the people around you where you notice like anytime somebody talks about the Bible or whatever they've got their study Bible out and they're chasing down the footnotes or the cross references. Those are the types of people that you should want to try to build a relationship with, and it's hard, it's an intimate thing to share something that you've written. Trust me, I'm telling you like, I work for Lysa Terkeurst. She is like Michael Jordan... You know they call her Michael Jordan in the writing world like I watch her and I'm just like this is incredible. And I will tell you the honest truth, She has so many people reading and getting feedback. I have watched Lys change so many sentences and chapters and books based off of just feedback. From the everyday average Bible student person that is just you know, willing to kind of give some input, and so my point there is just being like there's something about just trusting the process and putting yourself out there, and so hopefully that's built into your local relationships as it is.
Courtney:
Yeah, and I think that's helpful. To hear that the community so important. And then also that you know leaders at all levels, writers at all levels get feedback and you know, no one's perfect. And so, I think sometimes there's that impostor syndrome online or wherever where it's like. Oh yeah Oh my gosh I don’t know if I should post this or write this or anything. It's good when you get that feedback and understand that like people at all levels are getting feedback and changing things and all of that too.
Well, switching gears just a little. I'd love to also talk about some trends that I've noticed that are going on in our world as well from a spiritual perspective. I've noticed that, it's not new, there's really nothing new under the sun, but there's kind of been this resurgence, or re-popularization, with new ageism and the horoscopes and that kind of spirituality and like crystals and things like that. And to me, what I kind of see with that is that it means that people must be craving like more spirituality with like Jesus and the Holy Spirit and understanding that aspect. And how do you think that like we as the church can lovingly kind of either address that or just provide like Jesus and his hope to it? And how do we kind of interact with that?
Joel:
Yeah, so interesting. I think a couple things on that is one, I wonder if maybe and this isn't true across the board in the church, but I think it is true in certain streams of it. I think that we have... How I say this kindly, I think that we have shackled conversation over the Holy Spirit, you know. And the power of the Holy Spirit in a way that it is a missed doctrine that is taught and emphasized, and rightly understood in church conversation and preaching and teaching, which then leaves an open door for people who long for the power of the Holy Spirit. The gifts of the Holy Spirit. All these things and they're like wait a minute there's these crystals and chants and new ages and it's appealing to actually... and you said this, it's actually appealing to I think a God oriented part of our heart, but this is what idolatry is. And yet seeking after it from illegitimate sources, you know, and so one thing would be like, very practically like the Holy Spirit. Is that whatever you think you're going to get from crystals and from horoscopes and new ageism... One, there's real evil forces at play, right? There's like an actual supernatural world, and there's a real evil enemy at play and so I think we have to be really careful about our engagement and association with those types of things. This is what Paul talks about in Corinthians about food that is dedicated to idols like stay away from that kind of stuff like that's not good for us. And yet, if we could say, hey, let's reorient ourselves to the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. The power of the Holy Spirit. For the Christian life, live empowered by the same spirit that Jesus himself relies on and is guided by in his earthly industry, I think that could be incredibly powerful for people and they could meet that longing that they have in not illegitimate ways but legitimate ways.
Courtney:
Yeah, I think that that's so great and I notice it so often to where you know Christians will even kind of mess with some of that and it makes me nervous because I'm like man like we know though. We should know so, but I, I think that that brings value to the conversation too, because it is important to have those understandings that it's not just this inanimate thing, or just like, oh, I'm just going to kind of mess with this, but you know, it's either God or the devil like there's not this gray area where there's not spiritual. So, and you put out some great resources recently about understanding Holy Spirit better, is there any other resources you would suggest as well whether. It's on your website or through like books and stuff to better understand the Holy Spirit and grow in that.
Joel:
Yeah. There's a really great book by a New Testament scholar by his name Clinton Arnold, and he wrote a book on Spiritual warfare, and it's like everybody can read this book. You know it's just really, really good, and I think Clint Arnold is a leading scholar. He's who I reference. And the other person that I think is just incredible, did a good work on the Holy Spirit is my friend Jeannie Kenyon. She wrote both a Bible study and a book on the Holy Spirit, so you could just search her name and it'll pop up and I got to help her on the book writing project on a theological kind of standpoint and brainstorming and kind of thinking. Through the theology of the Holy Spirit, and I'm just really confident and just grateful for her writing that I think is going to be very helpful for many people.
Courtney:
Yeah, that's awesome. Is there any encouragement that you would kind of leave the listeners with before we wrap up or if they've walked through any church hurt or anything like that where we could maybe help them with what we've talked about today to kind of begin that healing and get back involved with church and find a good church again.
Joel:
Yeah, you know, we're recording this like the days leading up to Good Friday, you know Easter's around the corner, and I'm just struck by Jesus as he's being led to the cross. He could have had a lot of things to say, Courtney, and He gives a lot of things to a lot of the people. People that I believe personally were in the same crowd that were yelling Hosanna, Hosanna, Blessed be the one who comes in the name of the Lord, the son of David. And now they're on the side, either chanting. And you know, have yelled, crucify him, and now they're watching him being crucified. Or there are some people inside they're wailing, you know because for them the possibility of revolt and rebellion that he was supposed to elicit and bring about is gone. It's dead, you know, and they're stuck in Roman oppression. I have a suspicion that Jesus gives a lot of things and yet the thing that he continuously repeats that we have recorded throughout the Gospels is Father forgive them, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. Like Lord, forgive them and I just wonder what would happen for us if we took that same posture of forgiveness and understanding and kindness, especially in the area of church hurt where what I'm not saying is that we overlook it, or we brush it underneath the rug or anything.
In some situations, it's really serious and you gotta leave the church. You know you gotta, you gotta. You gotta separate for your health and spiritual well-being. But in other cases, I think I just wonder like the place starts with forgiveness. It's a legal term of releasing the offense so that not only you can move on, but that the community of people can move on together. And so, I just think that's important for us to consider the topic of forgiveness and our church hurt. Then just recognize like there is no perfect church on the side of heaven, you know, on this side of eternity, and yet the church is God's intended means for the reconciliation and restoration of humanity to God in Christ Jesus through the cross.
Courtney:
I, I think that that's really good, and I think so often too we can easily forget that people are human and that like they're not God, they are part of the church. But we're human and you know, I think sometimes we get that mixed up whenever there's a mixture of hurt within the church. So, I think that forgiveness factor is huge, so this has been so good. I know it's going to help so many people. I would love to hear how people can connect with you if there's any resources that you have. I know you just opened I think a Patreon account. And you have your Tuesday theology that you do. And then also I think it's called humble theology, so I'd love for you to talk about that so people can connect with you.
Joel:
So I do a lot of my like teaching and just like resourcing online for free through my social media, like through Instagram primarily. And it's just my last name @muddamalle and then recently I've had more and more requests for people just for resources and end time stuff. All this stuff and so one of the things that we've done is open up what I'm calling the humble theology fam, and it's like a Patreon community of people that want to just support the theological work and you'll get some resources, and it's kind of extra stuff as being a part of that, and so that's just patreon.com/humbletheology. And then my website muddamalle.com. It has a thing called bite sized theology. Actually, have to give credit every time I say this to my wife. She came up with the idea because she was just like Joel, I just need bite size theology like not your long rants of theological, just more like short, quick to the point. So I decided to do this kind of email list, there's like 12 or 15 emails that you'll get once a month, and you get to learn just theology in under 5 minutes, and so we talk things like doctrine and church and Trinity and justification, and you can find all of that on my Website.
Courtney:
Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time today. And I know this is going to be really beneficial, so thank you so much.
Joel:
You bet, thanks Courtney for inviting me.
Courtney:
Man wasn't today's episode just so good. Joel brought so much wisdom and I am just so thankful that he was willing to have this conversation with me. And I hope that it really helped you as well. I know that this series is going to hopefully bring a lot of freedom and just wisdom to this area and be an open door for you to have conversations in your own churches and with your own leaders as well. And I'm hoping that if you are a leader and you are listening to this series, that you can take away some wisdom and be able to have these conversations with the people in your own communities, in your own churches, so that hopefully we can bridge the gaps and help church to be a healthy, safe place for us to grow once again. Well, I will see you guys back here next week where I'll be talking with my Pastor, Pastor Brian Cromer, all about the local church will be diving a little bit more into church culture, a little bit more about healing from church hurt and so much more. I'm so excited for you hear next week's episode. And if you haven't yet, be sure that you're subscribed to the podcast.
Also, if you'd like to sign up for my email list, you can do so here. That way you'll get the episodes sent straight to your inbox, so you never miss it in case you happen not to see it on social media. Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you here next week.
