Deconstruction, Discernment and the Church with Rachel Dunaway | S3 E39
Rachel is a vibrant communicator who is passionate about seeing people flourish. Seasoned by her own journey with grief and through her own spiritual formation, she helps others find the silver lining in the mystery of walking with God. She enjoys writing poetry, lifting weights, eating tacos, and traveling. You can keep up with her on Instagram @hirachelelizabeth!
In this week's episode we go deep in our conversation. We talk about deconstruction and what that means and how we can do it in a way that grows our relationship with God. We also cover things like how the church can improve and have more empathy and accountability. Rachel talks about some of the incredible wisdom she learned during her time at Wheaton College getting her master’s degree and how we can have better discernment. And lastly we talk again about healing from church hurt and how we can do better at walking with people in their pain. This episode is a good one with lots of nuggets of wisdom!
What you can learn in today’s episode:
What is deconstruction and can it be a good thing?
What do we do with deconstruction to grow with God instead of walking away?
How can we have better discernment when their are so many voices to listen to in christian culture?
How can we be more gracious with our words and have impactful conversations about hard things?
How we can do a better job at being the church
How we can heal from church hurt
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Episode Transcript:
Courtney:
Rachel, thank you so much for being on the show. It means so much for you to be on the show with me because one, you're one of my best friends. And two, I know we've had a lot of amazing conversations about what I want to talk about today, and I just look up to you so much for wisdom and you always just are a solid friend for me to talk to you about things. So I'd love for you to just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself so the audience can get to know you.
Rachel:
Hey, Court, I'm so excited to be here. It's just such an honor to be on your podcast because I've just watched you on this journey and it's so exciting to be here. Like she was saying, I'm one of Courtney's best friends. We met in Birmingham, Alabama, and we were at Church of the Hollands. And I am professionally an ex teacher turned salesperson. And personally, I have been getting my master's degree in evangelism and leadership from Wheaton College. And so I'm about to graduate next week, and I'm so excited about that something that God lay on my heart. And I'm finally putting that chapter to a close. And I'm so excited about that. I'm really passionate about spiritual formation and apologetics and just seeing people flourish, like in their walk with the Lord. And so that's what I'm really excited about, kind of diving into with our conversation, but also, like after grad school and seeing where God takes me kind of down that path. And it's been really cool because I feel like sales. And like I said, as an ex teacher, sales, teaching, and evangelism are all the same conversation it's like persuading people to go deeper in different ways and persuading people to buy into something. So, yeah, those are the things I'm passionate about. I'm also an aunt and love hanging out with my friends.
Courtney:
I love that. You are one of my favorite people, and I love that you have so many different passions, but it's just cool how they all kind of, like mold together with just the path that you've been on with your job. And then even with grad school, I just think it's so cool and so proud of you for finishing. And I know it was a long journey because I know I remember when we sat down at Shake Shack you're like, yeah, I'm going to do this program, and that was like years ago. And so I know that it's been a long journey to get to this point. So I'm excited to use some of that knowledge that you've been learning and dive into today's episode, because in this series, we've been talking a lot about Church and different areas of Church and being the Church, as well as trying to bridge some of the current what seems like current divides that we're seeing currently and just hoping to bring some wisdom and unity and peace as the body of Christ.
I just wanted to have you on today to tie up the end of the series and kind of put a bow on it to help encourage people and give them just some tools in their toolbox to have the same kind of conversations and to dive a little deeper and just to have some wisdom to it. So the first thing I want to tackle is kind of a big one. It's a big buzzword right now in the Church world that we're seeing a lot about. And that is deconstruction. And I know in some Christian communities, some may even call it like a curse word because they're just kind of afraid of it. But I really don't think it's a curse word. I think that if done right, it's not a bad thing at all. But I think that just a lot has gotten lumped in with that word that has caused some fear in Church leaders and fear in the Church that we don't want people to do that. But I would love just to get your thoughts about it, because I know I have walked through my own journey with that, and you've helped me alongside that, as I have kind of come to terms with, what does the Bible actually say about some of these things that I've grown up believing or been taught in Church that maybe aren't quite biblical and different things like that that have helped me really get more grounded and rooted in my faith. So I'd love to get your thoughts of like, how can Christians work through the thoughts they have to ground themselves in God's truth? But while also shedding some of those misbeliefs that we've maybe picked up along the way in culture and just this whole thing of deconstruction.
Rachel:
Yeah. So first off, I think that God's journey for us is not static. He does not want us to stay the same our entire walk with him. Because if you look at anyone throughout scripture, God is constantly moving them forward to next steps. And it's very much a journey. And I think that a lot of the people that are still threatened by this idea of deconstructing and challenging our faith are people that are kind of stuck in a cookie cutter have gotten a box kind of idea. And so I think that as a Church, we have to be okay with people Scouts, because if we're not, we're not being intellectually honest with the fact that a lot of times we're threatened by people's doubts because we actually don't know the answer to that. So we'll just use little phrases like, it's not in the Bible, I'm not going to go there. I'm not going to think about that. And I think it's honestly, the posture of the Church has been that they felt fear and threatened. Like you said, they haven't been willing to go there with people. And so I think that's, like, one of the biggest things is that the Church feels threatened with that.
And I think that a lot of this conversation has to do with the fact that the American Church has thrived under Billy Graham and these different people. And they had a very simple explanation for the gospel. And it was very much a modern approach is what it's kind of considered where our entire society was. This modern approach where everything was factual and everyone believed in, like, a higher power. It was very black and white. But with Gen Z, yeah. With millennials and Gen Z, there's been this resurgence of postmodernism where there isn't absolute truth for a lot of people. They don't really believe in absolute truth. They believe in my truth and your truth. And so that's kind of, like, challenged the conversation with everything. As far as when people are deconstructing, they're like, oh, well, that's what you believe. And this is what I believe. And I think that ultimately the Church is kind of stuck. They are not kind of moving with society and adapting our approaches to meeting people with society because they're stuck in, well, this is black and white.
Like, I don't understand how you're not getting it. So all these people over here that are like, no, I have these big, valid questions like, why would God allow this suffering? Why has my journey been so hard? Why does my brother deal with depression? Like, all of these big questions? And the Church is like, it's black and white. It's in the Bible. Look at it, and they're not willing to go there with people. And I think that's just like the biggest disservice that the Church is doing right now. Like, for people that are having doubts.
Courtney:
I think that is definitely true and that there are a lot of questions. There's a lot of thoughts happening. There's a lot of just wanting to make sure that what we are bought into, what we are believing is really God's plan and all of that. And I think that, of course, along the way, like, culture has added to what we believe. And so I think sometimes when it comes down to it, we sometimes don't know what we believe because we've just been told what to believe instead of seeking it for ourselves. Is there anything that we can do with scripture and just with wise counsel and things like that to really go on that journey in a healthy way? And I know that there's even a book that you had told me about kind of different. Like, I can't remember if it's called Steps or just like this different journey you go on in your face. They can maybe encourage someone so that they don't walk away from God, hopefully, but they are able to deconstruct or do this in a healthy way so that they can grow stronger in their relationship with God.
Rachel:
Yeah, definitely. I think that first people like I was saying before need to be comfortable with their doubts and realize that we want to believe in Jesus and Christianity if it is true. And I think that honestly, like, us being honest about that and also the Church being honest and saying if Christianity is not true, we don't want to believe. It really putting Christianity on the line. It can withstand deconstruction, because if it's true. And so I think that really being honest with ourselves is really important. The book that you reference is The Critical Journey, and it is by Janet Hagberg and Robert Gillick, I think is how you say his name. And it's about the seven stages in the life of faith. And it's so good because it talks about how, like, the first step is obviously just like knowing God. And then the second step is moving into community and learning as much as you can. And then the third step is basically like having a fruitful, productive life. And like, you working for guys because you're like, well, this is naturally what I'm supposed to do. And you're like, just doing all the things for him. And oftentimes after that is like the stage that I think a lot of people are kind of stuck in, and a lot of people that are deconstructing are in, which is basically where it's stage four where they are. It's a God move. Like, God moves you down the journey.
As you're moving from this fruitful life where God is in this pretty little box, God wants to develop you even more as a person and as a believer. And so he's moving you along the journey. Obviously, you can be like, no, I can't go any further. But if you can just ride the way from float. He's going to take you through this a lot of times. What takes you from this third stage into this fourth stage is like a crisis. And suddenly all of these big questions that you have about God. The God that you knew is no longer like this cookie cutter God. And a lot of times it comes with a lot of distress, and people are like, wait, but what about this? This doesn't fit into this box that I put God in. And a lot of people deal with a lot of grief in this stage four, where it changes from knowing God, knowing about God to seeking you're seeking answers. You're seeking who he is. You're seeking answers about yourself and what you were created to do and your vocation, what he's putting you to do. It's just like this big shift from like, I know who God is, and this is what he put in me to all of a sudden like, oh, God, things are not the way that I thought they were, and it's not the end. Like, it's not the end of the conversation.
That's not where God wants to leave you. In this book, it talks about three more stages, but this is like the stage of greatest resistance, and this is the stage where most people deconvert that are going to walk away from God. But after that stage, it goes into stage five, and that's like, where you're finally fully surrendered to God and pouring out into people from this place. That like walking through the doubts and the questioning and the unknown and the uncertainty where she's so down that you can only be rooted in God at that point if you choose to keep walking with him. And then your life becomes about helping other people do that, and then just a life of love. So that's, like, the next two stages. Like I said, I think there's seven. I think that actually was just six when I was saying it. But it's so good just realizing that God is taking you on this journey, and he wants to see you flourish, but he also wants to help you deal with your he wants to help you deal with all of this stuff that's been holding you back. He wants to see your healing and your flourishing, and that means going there.
That means, like, deconstructing the way that maybe your Church said that God was so harsh, and you put him in a box, and he's like, no, I lavishly love you, and I want you to feel that, and I want you to know that. And I want you to know that I will never leave you or forsake you in your darkest depression, in your deepest loneliness, and even when the Church maybe abandons you, when culture abandoned you, when everyone else turns away from you, like, I will never leave you, and I am your rock and your solid ones like through all of this. And I think it's like in that deep despair and in that deep doubting and that deep uncertainty of everything that you've known that he meets you in that place, and then from there, he's going to take you down this journey where you can help other people flourish. If you can just literally tie a knot and hang on, this is not going to be easy now for sure.
Courtney:
And I know for me it wasn't easy because for my journey, I grew up in Church, but then in high school walked away for probably about seven years just because I had dealt with some severe Church hurt from people in leadership or something bad happened to me. And I felt very betrayed. And then I ended up finding God again at the end of College. And I was so excited, so on fire for God, all in all the things. And then whenever the pandemic started and all of a sudden, everything about Church pivoted, and there were so many different voices in Christian leadership just saying different things about different things. I really felt lost in my faith for the first time since coming back to Jesus. And suddenly I was having to figure out, okay, what does God truly say about this? I was having to go through scripture and figure out because really Scripture is the ultimate truth and that's God's word that he gave to us as the ultimate truth. And so I had to really figure that out.
And I talked to you, Rachel, I talked to my boyfriend and talked to several other Christian leaders just to help me through that because I felt so lost in my faith for the first time and probably like six years since I had come back to Jesus. And it was definitely one of those moments where and I think what really helped me to hang on through that, like deconstruction to hang on through those things that you talked about was knowing how faithful God is and separating people from God and realizing we need community, we need people. That's part of God's plan for us. He wants us to be in the family of Christ, but he also wants us to want Him. And I think realizing how faithful he has been to me and how he truly like you said, he's never left me. He's never forsaken me. He's always been there for me every step of the way. I realized, okay, I may not know everything I believe about God in this moment. I may feel very lost right now, but I know one thing. Like, I know God is good, and I know he's good to me. And I know that he has a plan for me. And I know that there's nothing else out there in the world that I believe that is above him. And so that's what kind of helped me to hang on and gave me encouragement through it because it can be really discouraging. It can be confusing and frustrating.
And there's a lot of tearful nights where I was like, God, I don't understand. I just don't understand all of this. But I think figuring out what I believe for myself versus what culture was telling me to believe and really digging in to God's word for what he says really helped me and helped me. And I think, too, there was this whole factor of kind of like a fear of man factor. And I struggled with that because I was like, what if I believe the wrong thing? I don't want to tell people something that's incorrect. And I think I was so afraid of what man like, what humans would think of me. But God was clear in his word. And so I just had to hold on to that of like, okay, I know what God says. I'm just going to hold on to this and keep praying and keep working through it. And like you said, I ended up feeling, like so much more on fire forgot after that, and my relationship shifted, but it was, like so much deeper and better and more surrendered. Like you said, for me, it was tough, but it was a good need experience for me to really be rooted and have that deep foundation in God.
Rachel:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the fact that you can look back and evaluate and see that God was working through all of that is amazing. I mean, there was purpose in the five years that you had when you were very certain about how God operated in the world and operated in your life, and then you shifted into this deep uncertainty, which to an outside person and many people who don't have an open mind with that would say, oh, my gosh, she's walking away from faith. She's deconverting. There are people that do that, but you just had real valid doubts, and God was able to handle those. And I think that really when you go through this process of doubting your doubts and digging deep and asking God these hard questions, I think that you become more confident with the uncertainty and the unknown, and you just kind of like lean into the mysteries of who he is, and you realize you're not going to know a lot of things, but that people have faith assumptions every single day with many things that we do in any religion, in any faith in that.
Like, you've seen evidence of God working in your personal life on top of understanding the historical Jesus. It's like a blend of experiential knowledge that you have that keeps you believing. And I also had a similar kind of experience with that because I like, for a long time had a very cookie cutter view of God and was like, he is this and this. He is always good. But I really bought into the belief that if I follow God, it would be like blessings and abundance. And it is, but it's not always in the traditional sense. It's also like when you follow Christ, you're signing up for a life of suffering and a life of dying to yourself and a life of deep mystery of like, I don't understand why God is doing what he's doing, but he is trustworthy and he is good. And I think that that's also part of the problem is I think a lot of the American Church has sold this package deal of walking with God that is rainbows and unicorns. And so I think it's led people to and then when people go through these deconstruction processes, they're having to deconstruct the belief that their life was going to be amazing by the world standards, by following God. And it's not always like if you look at the life of Christ and all these other people, it is hard.
Courtney:
Yeah. And I think going through this, it's like you're really like they call it deconstruction, but really you're just reconstructing what it is you actually believe and are standing on. I think that's so good. And one thing I would say, too, for the people listening is like, I did not do this alone. I had trusted people that were willing to walk through it with me and were willing to sit with me and the hard things and the questions. Like I said, I definitely recommend having those trusted people that you can talk to and talk through your questions with and just praying and seeking God and seeking his word. So I hope that that's helpful to people. And I want to talk to you about your evangelism and leadership degree, because I know you are graduating and it's been a journey. And you've learned a lot about communication, too, because you've studied apologetics and so many other things. And so I would love to talk about because you do such a good job with this, even outside of just Church stuff, just any hard conversation. You do such a good job of just being gracious and listening and empathetic with your words while also standing firm in truth. And so when it comes to our faith, how can we as believers and the Church work on being more gracious in our communications while still standing firm in God's word and stuff? But there's just so much division and culture, and people just seem to come at each other so quickly. But I think there's a way to have healthy conversations where maybe we do disagree or maybe we do have to have hard conversations, but we can do it in a gracious way. So any tips that you have learned that have helped you with those conversations?
Rachel:
Yes. I think that ultimately we have to see each other as image bears. And I think that social media has done us a great disservice because we can be isolated in our homes and firing back at people and not seeing the person behind it and not seeing their heart and their micro expressions when you say something so unkind. And I think the Church is equally bad at that. I think believers are equally bad at that. And it's not just on Instagram or the other social media platforms. I think that that is conditioning us to not see people as people with emotions that need to be cared for, intended to. And obviously, you're not in charge of other people's responses, but you are in charge of showing up and communicating in a way that the people you influence, like, where they can flourish. That is the whole biblical mandate is to show up and help everything around you flourish so that God can get the glory. And if you're showing up and you're not hearing people and you're not seeing people, the people that you're influencing are not going to flourish. And I think that that's, like, one of the most important things is showing up and seeing people where they are and really listening. Because I feel like a lot of the times the Church is trying to give people a prescription when they don't even know the condition, they're just like, okay, well, you should read your Bible more and pray more. And this and it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm dealing with this deep loneliness. And you have no idea. You have no idea because you haven't even taken the time to see or listen to me. And I think that's one of the biggest things is, like, people don't care about the truth of the gospel, that Jesus came to save them. It's like his representatives are treating them like trash. They're like, I want to be as far away as possible from people like you.
Courtney:
Yeah, I think that's definitely an area that we as the Church can work on. And when I keep saying Church, we as believers, like, we all are part of the Church. It's not just this Church or that Church. We all are the Capital C Church. We make up the body of Christ. And I think we can definitely do better at just being more like Jesus, being more gracious with our words, like being more kind and empathetic and walking through stuff with people. Not just, like Rachel said, giving cookie cutter answers or just, like, throwing something at them. Because I've heard the saying that people won't care what you know until they know how much you care.
Rachel:
And I think that that's so true, because so often we're so quick to be like, all right, here's a bandaid. Like, slap it on. But we don't sit and just, like, sit in hard things with them sometimes. And sometimes when it's things we're uncomfortable with, we just want to give an answer and walk away. We don't want to sit with them. And they're hard questions. And I think that that's a big miss. And when people feel unmet and those needs, they walk away. And I think that that's not what God would want us to do. I think he would want us to sit in it.
Yeah, well, Jesus, I mean, his whole Ministry was seeing people with seeing the outcasts with seeing the weirdos was seeing the people that society was like, they're the people that they're the undesirables over here. And oftentimes I see in the Church, people like, click up. They hang with their people and they don't go and address or talk to or make other people feel welcome. And I think that's one of the things that we can do is create an environment where people belong. They need to be able to belong before they believe. It doesn't matter what they come in there. Like, they need to be able to belong in the community before they even have a conversion and know Jesus, because our entire mandate is to like, Besides seeing people flourish is to create an environment where people feel at home. Jesus did that all the time. If we could do anything, it's like to love people in that way. But I think that people have an intolerance to sitting in the hard stuff, not only with other people, but with themselves. And I was reading a book recently for grad school, and it was called Temper Resilience.
And he talked about how empathy is one of the most important things when leading other people. But that self awareness is like the cornerstone of emotional intelligence, which leads to empathy. And like, even Brene Brown, I, like, wrote down this quote to tell you. Brene Brown said that empathy fuels connection and we can't show up with empathy if we're not even showing up for ourselves and going there with ourselves. So I think, like, we were talking about with the critical journey, but a lot of people are stuck in this stage three where they're like, God is like this and this, and we're not going to question it. And so when people show up that don't fit in that box, they're like, so unwelcoming instead of getting a little uncomfortable with themselves to move into the question and doubt. And I think that's one of the most important things is, like, for the Church to show up for other people, they have to have shown up and ask these hard questions for themselves because they can't be intellectually honest and they're like, I don't know the answer to that.
Courtney:
I think that's so good. And I think that's an area that we can definitely work on, whether you're a leader listening, whether you're part of the Church, like, no matter where you are in your walk with God, I think that that's such great wisdom for us to listen to and apply. I think it's practical. I mean, we can all work on being more self aware of ourselves and then also expressing empathy to others. And I want to switch gears a little bit, too, and talk about discernment, because I feel like this was something that I had to work through in the past few years where it felt like there were so many versions of the truth being thrown around. There were so many different like I mentioned, so many different Christian leaders and different people that they all seem to believe something different, which confused me because as Christians, why aren't we all on the same page kind of thing? Like, we all read the same Bible, how we have so many different interpretations of it. And I know for me something that was helpful was the scripture in one Corinthians where it talks about Apollo says this and Paul says this, but I stand on Jesus Christ, but I would love to talk about how can we stand firm and got through that? How can we have discernment for the voices that we listen to? Is there anything that you would recommend for that?
Rachel:
Yeah. So I think that, like I was saying earlier, with the culture that we live in, being postmodern in nature, where it's very much about my truth and your truth, I think we have to realize that a lot of the times I feel like believers are trying to have a modern, logical conversation where it's like, well, this is black and white and the world is trying to have or even Christians are trying to have these conversations of, well, there's Your truth and my truth. So it gets really complicated because you're having two different conversations a lot of the time, or you're hearing people debate because they're having two different completely world views. One is believing in absolute truth, that Jesus is Lord. It's very black and white, and the others are like, no, these are my objections. This is my experience. And I think that when you are able to see that that's kind of what's leading to a lot of the division and conflict. I think that awareness of that is really important. So when you're having this conversation of truth, you have to really understand what you think that truth is. And I don't believe in relativism, like, in the fact that truth is only true if it's related to culture and it's related to these things.
Like, I believe that Jesus is true and the gospel is exclusive. You have to really own that when you're walking with the Lord. Jesus said that he is the way. He didn't say he was a way, he was the way to the Father. And as a believer, we have to own that and say, like, okay, this is the hard truth of the gospel, that there is one way to the Lord. But I think also, like you were saying, digging into Scripture and understanding the nature of God and understanding that really like the meta narrative or the bigger story of Scripture, how God created this beautiful place for us to live. And then there was the Fall, and during that we were supposed to flourish. And then there was the Fall and he was like, okay, my people are going to be set apart. They're going to help the world to know me. And then we just kept failing. And then there was Jesus who came along. It's like, okay, they're struggling. They're on the struggle. But here we're going to give them an example, and then God is going to make it all new and, all right, that is like the truth. That's the truth of the gospel, that there is purpose for every ounce of pain that we have. Like, it's not going to end with us being in eternal anguish and agony for the rest of our lives.
Like, God's going to make a garden with our tears. He's going to make something beautiful with that. And I think if you can really stand on that truth and know that there's, like, purpose in all of this, I think that it kind of makes like when you hear all these different opposing opinions, when you can really fine tune what you believe, I think when you hear these other opinions that you're able to kind of sift them out a little bit easier and say, okay, that doesn't really align with my world view that God is going to make sense of all of these things, or that doesn't align with my world view that God is a God of justice. Like, this is not okay. And we're going to seek to see the redemption of that here on Earth. But we may not see it to, like, completion or just different things that you walk through and different cultural things that flare up really big. You can kind of just sit back and say, okay, I see where my biblical world view kind of puts me with this. And to be empathetic to people that maybe don't have people that have a different worldview than me, but I'm going to just stay in my Lane of like, okay, this is what God has told me about his nature. This is what God has told me about the purpose and how he's going to redeem these really terrible, hard things that are happening. And I get to be a part of that right now and help the world to see flourishing. But I'm going to just keep believing that even when these voices of the world are so loud.
Courtney:
And I think that part of that is kind of that whole sanctification process, but also accepting the sovereignty of God and accepting that if we choose to believe in him, he's Lord, he is Lord of our lives. And I think that discernment factor too. I think so often we quickly forget or dismiss the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit gives us discernment. If there's something that's not sitting right with you, pray about it, because the Holy Spirit can and will reveal it to you. And that verse that I was referencing earlier, I pulled it up really quickly. It's in 1 Corinthians 3 and it's in verse five. It says, after all, who is Apollo? Who is Paul? We are only God's servants through whom you believe the good news. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seeds in your heart. Apollo watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It's not important who does the planting or who does the watering. What's important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose, and both will be rewarded for their own hard work. We are both God's workers, and you are God's field. You are God's building.
So I would encourage you guys read through one Corinthians three, because there's just a lot of encouragement and stuff about our walk with God in that scripture. But that was what was encouraging to me, too, about kind of either opposing voices or just so many different voices, because that's one thing with our generation, too, is at the click of a button, we can listen to like 20 different sermons. We can listen to all these different influencers, whoever we want to listen to. And it can get really noisy. But I think it's important to allow ourselves to get quiet with God and make sure we understand, like, what Rachel said, what do we really believe and do we believe that about God?
Rachel:
So I think that's so important. And I think, too, like solitude and silence are two very undervalued practices in our Western Church and society. And I think that we see that example in Jesus and the way that he would go away and get quiet. I love looking at him in the garden of Gethsemane when he's experiencing this really hard thing. Obviously, he's been in community this whole time, but he takes a moment to step away and go be with God. And you see that with Moses, too. You see this example all throughout scripture of people going and intentionally taking time to carve out to be with God. And that's honestly, you can be reading your Bible. I mean, reading Bible is so important, but also just sitting in his presence, it doesn't have to be complicated. Like maybe you read a verse and you sit in silence and solitude, maybe for ten or 15 minutes, like not doing anything, like literally just sitting there and allowing him to speak into your heart or just allowing yourself to be this blank canvas for him.
Well, I was in the spiritual formation class and personal development class with this amazing professor. His name was Dr. Gallagher, and he just talked about these rhythms in life and how God will take you down the path that he wants to if you can just float. On the first day of class, we showed up and we had all frantically been trying to get all of our work done. And he said, I just want you to lean back and I just want you to float this week and allow the river to take you where it takes you. And he talked about how that's how our journey with God is. But a lot of us are, like, flailing in the water instead of resisting, instead of just, like, enjoying that process and allowing God to speak to us and enjoying those slower rhythms. And I think there's something really special in that for helping you to understand and really clarify what you believe with God.
Courtney:
Yeah. I feel like that's something that our generation especially struggles with is like sitting still and being alone with our thoughts. We will do everything we can to not be quiet and be alone with our thoughts. We'll listen to music. We will play a podcast. We will just do so many different types of things. And I had listened to a podcast maybe three years ago now that Annie F. Downs sat down and talked with someone. I can't remember who she was talking with, but they talked about that, of how it's like challenge yourself to have those moments alone with your thoughts and have those moments of quietness and just meeting with God without worship music playing settings, a mood without, you know, something in the background, just anything. And like, I know for me, I can't always do this. But one of the places that I feel like I hear God the most is when I get out in his creation, whether it's at the beach or on a hike. And for safety reasons, I don't typically go by myself on those types of things because I am a woman. But still, I can be with one of my friends. But we both are sitting quietly. We're not sitting, chat, chatting or anything, but I feel like I fill my journals up so much faster with, just, like, thoughts from God. But you can do it at home, too. It's just it takes intentionality to sit and to be still in that.
Rachel:
Yeah. He's expectant to meet you, and he's expected to meet you and your doubts and your big questions and just wherever you are, he's just, like, ready to lavish and love you and to show up and to have this intimate connection with you. But we're oftentimes just so busy that we're just running past all of his efforts to be with us.
Courtney:
Yeah, that's so true. Well, one of the last things I wanted to talk about was there seems to be so much going on currently in the Church world. And I think sometimes it can. I mean, not even sometimes it's discouraging. It can be discouraging to see the hurt and the pain and the division happening and just to see God's children not in unity. And I think that so often we see what would be kind of like the dark side or the bad side of Church. And that's what gets highlighted in these documentaries and on these podcasts and different things like that. But there is so much more than that. There's so much good happening, too, that I think we sometimes don't see. Is there any encouragement that you would offer or wisdom that you would offer just to encourage believers to one, like not give up on being the Church, and two, to go through that kind of healing journey if they have been hurt by the Church.
Rachel:
The Church is God's plan A and that's the thing I want us to know. The local Church is like these small gatherings of the universal Church, the people across all time that have known Yahweh that have sought to make him known in the world. But his plan from the beginning with Adam and Eve was for people to see his goodness through them. And so I think that the Church has to keep showing up. We have to keep accepting God's invitation to walk this hard road in this world that is in a lot of ways it's well, it's simple, but he wants us to be able to bring that flourishing here. There's kind of this tension that we live in as believers where we've already experienced the fullness of who he is, but we haven't yet experienced the culmination of everything that's going to be. And we get the honor and the privilege and the struggle of walking through that. And it's super hard and it's painful. And I think that just continuing to show up. I think we have to challenge ourselves as a Church and as friends of believers and everything to keep showing up, even when it's hard and showing up and being a people of action, like not just words. I think people by the time walk away from Christianity because they see a lot of Christians that are saying these things and saying they'll be there, but then they're actually not.
We have to be people of action and integrity and keep showing up, and that's hard. But if you are someone that has been hurt by the Church, know that you are so seen by God, and even if people are going to disappoint, and I think that we have to just realize that a lot of these people that are causing the pain have not. They're, like stuck in stages, one to three of this critical journey. They have not gotten alone with their thoughts and their doubts and these hard things and haven't allowed God to really develop them. I think a lot of times they don't even realize the harm that they're causing. And that doesn't make it easier. But just know that God sees you. He's like Elroy is like a name of God. Like, he sees you in your pain. And we have to just keep showing up and asking God to make sense of it personally. We have to keep asking God to make sense of it. I think corporately as believers, as we grieve with other people who have experienced that, we have to keep asking God to show up and make something beautiful if something so painful. And it kind of makes me think of that movie The Shack, because Mac loses his little girl and God takes him down this grieving journey and he realizes in the end that God was making like God used it in this beautiful way, even though it was a terrible, terrible thing.
And one of the things I just got done with this class of organizational change and leadership, and she talked about walking people through a lamentation process. And I think that's something that we don't do enough in the Western Church is to sit and lament. And that's like we have a whole book in the Bible name lamentation about this whole thing. But we don't ever do that. We're just like, okay, sparkly rainbows, unicorns. But to walk with God is to lament and see the world as it should be and then see what's currently going on. And there's like this grieving process. A lot of times we just don't even take the time to grieve that as much as we should. And so I think that maybe incorporating more in our Church of lamentation and more of sitting with people and these hard things and just being honest and saying, I don't know why. I do not know why this happened is happening, making necessary changes where people can flourish, I think that's really important. And I think overall, like I said, just like continuing to show up because literally the world needs you and the body of Christ needs you to be healthy personally and to keep showing up for them. That's God's big plan here.
Courtney:
That's so beautiful and such a great reminder because I think so often people get caught up in the micro aspect of it. They can only see what's right in front of them and the pain and the hurt is real. But then there's that macro level like you mentioned, and like the bigger story at play. And Unfortunately, Church is made up of humans. We have a sinful nature. We have our own issues. We're not perfect. And I think so often we walk into Church and expect everyone to be perfect because they're Christians. Why not? But I think we have to realize everyone has their flaws. And there unfortunately aren't always like good people in every Church, but there are a lot of really good people too. And I think if we look for the good people, I think that we will see so much more goodness in Church and that we will find that God is not like forgetting us. He's not just leaving us out to dry, like he has a plan. And like you said, Church is his plan, a and we are the Church. So it's our duty as well to lament and be with believers who are lamenting. And I mean, just like whenever Jesus found out that Lazarus had died and he went to go and he knew he was going to raise him from the dead, but when Mary came to him and said, Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you get here sooner kind of thing. He wept like she was weeping. And so he wept with her like he knew what he was about to he knew he was about to resurrect Lazarus. But he sat I don't know if he sat, but he stood there and he wept with her. Like it says, Jesus wept. And that shows that he cares so deeply and has emotion, even if he knows the outcome is different than what we think it's going to be. Like he has that emotion. And I think that we as believers need to reflect that too, even if we see a different perspective or even if we don't know the answers. I think that's another thing is we need to be okay not knowing the answer sometimes in just sitting with people like we mentioned throughout this episode. But I just think it's a beautiful thing to be able to weep with one another and not have to know the outcome, but to trust that God does.
Rachel:
Yes. And just hold each other and just stand with each other. I mean, life is hard. It's so hard whether you're a believer or you're not a believer. Like, life is really hard. And whether you're a believer or not, walking in humanity is just a challenging thing. And you can relate to people like the Church. People in the Church can relate to nonbeliever just because we're walking this human journey together. There really should never be a lack of commonality because we've all dealt with betrayal and suffering and happiness and all of these things. I mean, we have so much that we relate to other people on. And I feel like oftentimes the Church just kind of like pigeonholes ourselves into these things instead of just being like, no, you're a human. I get it. I get that you're going through this hard thing, like, I'm going to be here and love you through it. Do you need me to make you a meal? I'll make you a meal. I know that this is really painful that someone died in your life, or even if you have an unbelievable friend at work, if their boyfriend broke up with them, get them flowers or do something nice, you just need to be a Church that's activated and sees people and sits with them and stuff, even if they don't believe. Believing should not be the threshold of if you're a good human to that person.
Courtney:
Exactly. That will preach. Oh, my gosh. Well, is there anything else you would want to leave the listeners with today before we close up this episode?
Rachel:
So I think that I've kind of echoed this through the whole conversation, but really showing up and digging deep and understanding what you believe and why you believe it is paramount. And it's just something that we need to do as believers, we need to take the time and intentionally ask God to meet us in these places not only for ourselves, but so that we can show up for other people. Like I said, I've mentioned a lot of this already, but like, our pain and sorrow is important, and God wants to meet us in those places. And I just think that he wants to take us so much deeper than we ever thought. And we just have to be willing to float down that river and do that. And I know everyone's, like, do the work. Like, that was like a really popular phrase, and I don't really like that phrase, but we do have to show up willing to do it. And I think that if every single person showed up and allowed God to help them flourish and then allowed that flourishing to trickle out into their friends and then their family and they're like, small bubble of people, every believer did that, the world would be an entirely different place. And I think we just got to do it. We got to not just be in our heads, not just be scrolling Instagram, but be going deeper theologically and emotionally and growing our EQ and just allowing the Holy Spirit to change us.
Courtney:
Yeah, that's so good. Well, thank you so much for being on. If people want to connect with you, what is the best way that they can connect with you online, on Instagram or wherever else?
Rachel:
Yeah, this was such an honor to be on here. I loved it. Court, it was so great to sit here and chat with you. The best way to connect with me is on Instagram. It's @hirachelizabeth and you can find me there and see the different things I'm up to there.
Courtney:
Awesome. Well, again, this conversation I know is going to help so many people, and I think it's just going to be a breath of fresh air for folks. So I am so thankful for your time tonight and just so thankful that you were willing to come on and talk with me about this. So I appreciate you so much.
Rachel:
This is awesome. Thanks, Court.
Courtney:
My goodness, that episode was so good. I'm so thankful for Rachel's time, and those are conversations that she and I have pretty frequently. And so I was just very excited for you guys to get to come into one of our conversations and get to listen in. And I hope that you were able to take a lot away from it. I hope that it brings you freedom and wisdom and just a breath of fresh air. And if you haven't yet, make sure that you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen. I would also love if you could share this episode with any of your friends or on your social media platforms if this was impactful for you. And I also would love if you could leave a review. I know those are a lot of steps and you hear podcasters ask us all the time, but it really, truly does help and it really helps with just other people getting to find out about the show and getting to hear these messages that I feel are just so special and so helpful for our generation. I hope you have a great week and I'll see you guys back here next time.
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